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6 Comments Add Yours ↓

  1. xypruz #
    1

    in my own beliefs, i really not so sure bout who god is but i believe in him..religions are peoples stupidity to escape and live in denial, it cant feed their stomach anyway..well, religions are just vices, cant save them too.

  2. xypruz #
    2

    hope anyone would mail me something relevant

  3. Joses #
    3

    Xypruz, what about God do you believe in?

  4. 4

    It wasn’t clear to me if you meant by “believe a falsehood” whether you meant believing in God when he doesn’t exist, or that He exists but Christianity is a false religion. Either way however I would say this; If God doesn’t exist then we all end up in the grave at which time we would have no memory whatsoever as to what kind of life we had on this earth. We wouldn’t know whether we had a life of happiness and prosperity or a life of suffering and poverty. If the end result of every human life is to have no remembrance of that life, then I fail to see how one could waste something that is entirely irrelevant and meaningless. And although most of us would prefer a life of bliss to that of suffering, it really doesn’t matter when at some point in time we won’t even know we ever existed. What would be the purpose then in trying to “make the world a better place” when in fact every living being would come to a point of not knowing that that “better world” even exists. So then, if one must suffer persecution and sacrifice some of the comforts and pleasures of this life to live as a Christian, and it turns out that there is no God, what has he truly lost but a life that he doesn’t even know ever existed? In the grave he wouldn’t even know that he ever suffered. In that scenario the Christian has nothing to lose and everything to gain. If he is right he gains eternal life! If he is wrong he is no worse off than the atheist because ultimately neither will remember what kind of life they had. Therefore it is the atheist that has everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain. If he is right he gains nothing over the Christian. If he is wrong he must answer to God in the Day of Judgment.

    On the other hand, what would be the consequences if one were to die as a Christian only to find out that it was a false religion? Since no other major religion is opposed to living a life in the practice of righteousness it seems to me the Christian would be just fine. However, if Christianity is the truth, those of other religions have much to be concerned about. It is Christ that said He is the only way to God not Buddha. (As a side note, if Christ is God as Christianity teaches, it should seem obvious to everyone that He has to be the only way. To reject Christ is to reject God! How could we possibly think that we can reject God (or Christ) by following another religion and still think we are ok with the God we rejected? It is contrary to all logic and reason). All the major religions teach that we must be righteous in order to obtain to a superior hereafter. Christianity is the only religion that says we can only gain that righteousness by believing in Christ. At that point the Buddhist is in trouble even as all other religions. Even if reincarnation were true the Christian is better off. So again, in this scenario the Christian has nothing to lose and everything to gain. However, those rejecting Christ have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

    So then, it seems to me that a Christian is the only human being on this earth that has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. What is the logical conclusion then? Submit to Christ by becoming a Christian or you will in some way, shape, or form, end up the loser.

  5. Nate #
    5

    James,

    You made an eloquent and contextualized presentation of a classic argument. I have a question about Pascal’s wager, though.

    1. Is it true that my life can not be considered to have been wasted simply because I will never realize that it has been wasted? I can easily imagine an alternative viewpoint that would counter that life has potential meaning.

    If I was in a library, and was absolutely convinced that, although I had to leave the library at 5 o’clock, an extremely important dignitary was going to visit the library at 6 o’clock, it would make sense for me to spend my entire day cleaning the library and preparing it for the arrival of the worthy person. I may leave the library believing I’ve done a great service, and I may never know anything to the contrary. But if I had known that no one else was actually ever going to come to the library…I mean, come on, I could have read so much! Wouldn’t it be fair to say that I “missed out” by only dusting the books that day?

    I have trouble communicating without using hypothetical examples, but hopefully I made my point. The main point is that it seems that in saying that ignorance of one’s wrongness equals “losing nothing” you leave out other possibilities. Namely, that truth always has intrinsic value, and that there can be meaning within our present life without God–meaning which we might lose out on because of our commitment to God and his goals rather than our own. While such a mistake might pall in comparison to an eternity of redeemed life, such an extreme comparison is still not enough for us to rule out the possibility that we’re wrong, in which case the present life is all we have.

    To drive this home: I just invented a religion where everyone who worships the Nate monkey will live a life of complete fulfillment, while all others will live in eternal pain. Here’s the seller: you can still worship Jesus and the Nate monkey, and if you worship the Nate monkey just once, Jesus will forgive you, but if you never worship the Nate monkey you’ll live in eternal condemnation. The choice is obvious, right? Is the fact that eternity is at stake alone enough for you to take my religion seriously and follow through with such an easy task? No, despite the huge stakes, I’m guessing most people will find it better to make a truth claim that my religion is false, thus ignoring my pleadings to worship the Nate monkey. Except for Christians, that is. Those who believe in a less forgiving God might have something to lose, but Christians certainly have little to lose, right? They believe in a God of forgiveness, so their self-interested, logical actions should lead them to worship the Nate monkey. A little fire insurance never hurt anybody right?

    I would present an alternative. (Jesus’ Wager?? invitation??) The benefits to be had by following Jesus are huge, but so are the consequences. Jesus warned his disciples of trials, tribulations, and persecutions, and in the epistles we are presented with a picture of an assembly of believers who, while being commanded to continually rejoice in the truth, also endured considerable suffering. Our joy is based on the hope that is set before us; a hope that is justified based on Jesus’ resurrection. If Christ did not in fact rise from the dead, and our hope is thus ill-founded, then we are, of all people the most pitiable–as Josh quoted from Paul in the article above. Jesus asks for more than a prayer, more than a one-time acknowledgment. He’s asking for our lives. That’s a big deal, regardless of the stakes involved. Christianity is more like marriage and less like buying insurance on the cheap. It should be entered into only after serious reflection, and it’s so so much better than that little warm feeling you have at night knowing that your baseball cards are insured against fires, floods, theft, and UFO’s.

  6. 6

    Nate,

    I think the arguments for meaning, apart from the existence of God, all fail when looking at them, not from the perspective of the present, but from that of the future. As an example, when a person is five years old a toy car may seem to be the most important thing in his life. If that five year old could look at it from a sixteen year old’s perspective he would come to understand that the toy car was, if he remembers it at all, of little significance. It is the same with the sixteen year old. His first car means everything to him, and yet it’s not long before he loses interest in it and wants a new one. In other words, what we perceive in the present as significant we oftentimes, in the future, perceive as insignificant. In looking at things from this standpoint we are kept from placing too high a priority on things that are, in reality, of little or no value. Likewise, if we look at things from the future reality of death, we will look at life from a far more pertinent viewpoint. In a way, we experience that reality when we sleep. In sleep we lose all perception of life and what it consists of. What we did throughout the day only becomes relevant, assuming there is no God, if we wake up the next morning to live another day. If God doesn’t exist then when we die it will be a sleep from which we never awake.

    With this perspective in mind I would fail to see, in your hypothetical, how one would have “missed out” by only dusting the books rather than reading them if at some point in time you won’t even know that you read them. When in the grave would you be thinking, “What a shame that I wasted my time dusting those books when I could have read them?” As it is written in the book of Ecclesiastes about a life lived without regard to the purpose, authority, and glory of God, “Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity”(Eccl. 1:2).”All that my eyes desired I did not refuse them I did not withhold my heart from any pleasure, … I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind and there was no profit under the sun” (Eccl. 2:10, 11). In other words, all my activities, no matter what they consist of, are of no value in the absence of the everlasting promises of God.

    When the Apostle Paul stated that, “if only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. ” he goes on to say in verse 32, “If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die”. Paul is answering some of the Corinthians who were saying “there is no resurrection of the dead”(v.12). Paul is not arguing that if there is no resurrection we should enjoy life rather than waste it. He is arguing that, apart from the resurrection, life is a waste and is irrelevant so you might as well enjoy it. If a Christian suffered his whole life for what turned out to be false, it stands to reason that he would have preferred not to suffer for nothing. In that regard, while he lived, he would be more pitiful than other men, but it is nonetheless irrelevant after he dies and has no remembrance that he ever lived let alone that he ever suffered.

    The main point is the fact that Paul reveals that he had no doubt whatsoever of the resurrection otherwise he himself, according to his own argument, would not have suffered the persecution which ultimately resulted in his own death. The redeeming faith of the Apostles was not in believing the historical fact of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection. They were not asked to believe in something that they saw with their own eyes (even though Paul was not an eyewitness to the resurrection as the other Apostles, he did see, with his own eyes, the risen Christ on the road to Damascus). It is clear in Scripture that they, “walked by faith not by sight” (2 Cor. 5:7). Obviously, since they saw Christ live, die, and rise from the dead, there could be absolutely no doubt in their minds as to the fact of it happening. Their faith was to be in the promises of God as pertaining to what Christ had accomplished on their behalf as foretold in the Old Testament. It was in His Person, His promises, and all that He claimed to be.

    Christ does indeed advise those who would be his followers to count the cost. We are asked to forsake the passing pleasures of sin, to live holy and godly lives, to perhaps endure persecution, and possibly lose our physical lives, as many of His followers have experienced throughout history. It would be foolish, if not impossible, to do such based on a blind faith. However, the Apostles were obviously not asked to accept Christ’s claims based on a blind faith but on that of overwhelming evidence. And because of their powerful eyewitness testimony, along with many other evidences too lengthy to list here, neither are we. Nevertheless, the cost is only as high as the value of life. I would argue that apart from God it is worth very little. The logical conclusion, in my estimation, is that anything temporal which has no eternal benefit or purpose is ultimately meaningless and worthless. As Jesus said “For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matt. 16:26) To lose one’s soul is to lose eternal life. If there is no God and Christianity is a farce (which would mean that every other religion that believes in a god would be a farce as well) then every living being will lose their soul. If that were the case, a person could achieve and experience every comfort and pleasure known to man, gain the whole world and everything in it, and according to Christ, it would profit them nothing. In other words, the end result is of no value. On the other hand, if eternal life is a reality and a person’s soul is preserved, then every second of life on this earth has eternal consequence and the potential of everlasting gain. Thus making life, as it were, irrespective of the extent to which one must suffer, of infinite and incalculable worth.



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